Transcript
Sarah Gallo:
Hi, welcome back to The Business of Learning. I'm Sarah Gallo, senior editor here at Training Industry.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
I'm Michelle Eggleston Schwartz, editor in chief at Training Industry. Today's episode is brought to us by KPMG. Here's a brief message from our sponsor.
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Sarah Gallo:
More and more organizations are realizing that creating a culture of learning is a strategic business advantage. It gives employees valuable career development opportunities while also equipping them with the skills they need to help the business thrive. Today, we're excited to hear from Amy Parker, former chief learning officer and executive director of the U.S. Department of Veteran Affairs, which we'll refer to as “the VA” throughout this episode, and Joe Farrell, managing director at KPMG U.S., about their partnership in effort to create a strategic learning culture at the VA. Joe and Amy, welcome to the podcast.
Joe Farrell:
Thank you, Sarah. It's a pleasure to be here.
Amy Parker:
Likewise, thanks so much.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Yes. Welcome. We're so excited to have you here today. To get things started, why don't you both share a little bit more about yourselves and how you got involved in the learning space over the years?
Joe Farrell:
Sure, absolutely, Michelle. I'll kick it off. I grew up in Dublin, Ireland, and actually my grandfather, Joe, was a World War vet, part of the greatest generation from my perspective. I came over to America on a scholarship where I pursued a business and master's degree in business management and learning technologies. From there, I went into the learning field, where I became an instructional designer solution architect and managed large-scale global learning organizations. During that process, I had the opportunity, and [continue to] have the opportunity, to meet innovators and leaders like Amy Parker to co-design, build and sustain modern learning solutions.
Amy Parker:
And I have a bit of a generalist background. My civil service career with the U.S. government started with the navy. I was with the Department of Defense for a little over 10 years. From the navy, I went to the Pentagon and did five hard years there. And I also have veterans in my family. My father was navy in the Vietnam War. My mother was also a navy civilian, so maybe this is the family service. And then, for those that are DOD background (Department of Defense), they'll understand the term “purple,” so I have a cousin in the army, an uncle who was in the marine corps. I even have an uncle through marriage who was in the coast guard and my husband is a retired air force officer. So, the VA had a strong pull on my heart. And I went over though in a very different role. I was with the CFO [chief financial officer] shop. When I became an executive at VA, they do something really amazing for their executives and assigned them a coach. And that's when I was bit by the learning bug, talking to my coach about development and potential, first in the financial management space and then [about] the opportunity to move over to be the chief learning officer. And in that role, I think Joe could attest that I was an enthusiastic beginner. I saw potential where maybe others naturally wouldn't and then was really supported by the KPMG team to pursue a lot of different opportunities, which made it great.
Sarah Gallo:
Very cool. Thank you both for sharing. Amy, you touched a little bit on your role as a chief learning officer, most notably that you were an “enthusiastic beginner.” I love that term. I'm interested to hear how you've seen the CLO role evolve over the years. Do you have a personal philosophy on learning that you like to share with our listeners?
Amy Parker:
Oh yeah, I love to do this, so if I could do the personal philosophy first, and it developed before I came into this CLO [chief learning officer] role. It might have been what I say, “I open my big mouth a lot around the department with leaders about learning,” and I think I wanted to have a saying, or a sign-off for my emails, and [I wanted to talk] to people about learning in a way that would stick. And all of our U.S. military services have a “semper” saying. [Semper] is Latin for “always.” Most people are very familiar with the marine corps one, “semper fidelis” or “semper fi,” for instance. So put it in the Google machine, and what comes up as Latin for “I'm always learning?” “Semper disco.” And as a child from the '70s, I could not resist that. Now, not everybody loves disco. I briefed our secretary one time that he said, "I used to have a bumper sticker that said ‘death before disco.’” But it was fun to introduce the “glittery ball” and some of that fun music. And also that idea that we can always be learning. We learn on a daily basis. We learn from many different avenues, not just classrooms, although classrooms are very important. But we can shadow. We can detail. We can mentor. We can coach, which is where really where my heart is. We can read and we can listen, and so there's a lot of opportunity for learning. And this was the other thing that was great about our partnership with KPMG and what Joe and his team really opened up for us. I would say [that I’ve seen] learning evolve from a dictate to a service really, and [there’s] so much content available [now]. When Google enters the college space, you know that things are about to crack wide open. Or they already are, and we're just not all aware of it yet. And so another point of reference for our partnership, and teaming together, was to open as many opportunities to get more to more people. Not to overwhelm them, but actually we'll talk later about how we really thought about the individual [when creating programs].
Sarah Gallo:
Perfect. I love that philosophy of “always learning,” or “semper disco.” It just has a nice ring to it. I'm going to use that.
Amy Parker:
Okay, good.
Sarah Gallo:
Perfect. Joe, can you expand on that for us? From your perspective, what are the changes you've seen in the past three to five years compared to years prior?
Joe Farrell:
Yeah, absolutely, Sarah. I mean, from my perspective, the big change is leveraging technology. And one of the things I would say is that the CLO has always been strategic, but [the role is] even more strategic today with a lens on productivity, performance [and] driving an innovative culture. 87% of executives that we serve at KPMG basically said they want their employees to be more innovative. Learning can actually provide environments where you can test your ideas, [in] the Metaverse for example, and you don't do any harm. So one of the things is really driving that productivity, that performance, driving that culture and the wellness of our employees. As you know, we've been through quite a bit with COVID-19, obviously the economic crisis, the health care crisis and somewhat of the climate crisis is coming in. So there's a lot going on in our employees' worlds. And we need to take that into consideration and focus on the wellness and the engagement of our employees so that, obviously, they can drive those key performance indicators that I just mentioned. And, obviously, just to touch base on the veterans. The employees of the VA, they're committed to supporting veterans. And obviously, with all these things going on in the world, we need to deliver an experience that gives them what they need, when they need it, in the flow of work, so they can get their job done. And actually when they get their job done, Sarah, we're finding out [that] employees feel good about themselves. Their wellness shoots up when they're more productive and supported, especially [in] the veterans community.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Definitely. The environment in which we work has evolved so much over the past few years, and learning is a great way to support our workforce. Now that we've covered some of those very real challenges and changes that have impacted organizations over the past few years, let's dive into your own experiences. Amy, can you tell us a little bit about the VA and its employees and learners? Who [were] your stakeholders? Can you share a little bit more about why it was important to the VA to create a leading learner experience?
Amy Parker:
The VA has perhaps one of the most sacred missions of government agencies in the United States, [which is] to care for those who have born the battle and for their families, and it's strong because of that. The department’s employees report a very high [level of] satisfaction for doing their jobs every day, everything from grounds keeping at our cemeteries to heart surgery, and so it's a vast mission. [The VA has] such a diversity of backgrounds of education, of interest and learning styles as well as [employees’ physical locations]. We have have folks that are at their desks every day. We have folks that never see a desk. They don't sit down. So it was that [level of] variety. And when the VA really embraced a leadership development framework that would serve all employees, we were off to the races as far as creating a learning environment and doing so to attract and keep talent. And this happened before I was in the seat as CLO and they passed me the “football,” the learning leadership across the department was coming together and developing a leadership development framework. That's what they called it. We used [a lot of] acronyms. The government loves acronyms. LDF for short, and they wanted to say to the employee, "We are invested in you however you choose to take your leadership journey." So this was not an “up or out” situation. This was not like, "Everybody get on board." This was, "Here are the things that you need to do to progress, and you can be wherever you want to be in the leadership journey." For instance, I used to joke when I arrived at VA that I would either meet people that had just come on board like me [who had been working at the VA for one or two or five years] or we had [people who worked there for the past 25 or 35 years]. We even had 50-year employees. Those people have a depth of experience and knowledge that is so important. We are in small markets where there's not a lot of turnover. People want to live in their hometown, and they want to contribute. And then we're in markets where in cities where folks are turning over; they're moving up or across and that sort of thing. So a lot of variety is how I would summarize it, that [we had to consider] for the leadership development framework. And that really fit into the work we also did, which is part of what we're talking about with KPMG. In government, if you want to memorialize something, you put it in a memo, and that's what we did. And it sounds so silly maybe right now, but it helps when you have change in leadership, or perhaps you need to pivot your approach to have something foundational. So the secretary signed that back in December 2019, and it has been a game changer. It happened right before we hit the COVID time. And I know we'll talk some more about how the department adjusted for that, but that was definitely an important foundation for us.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
That's great. I'd love to hear a little bit more about how partnering with KPMG really helped solve some of those learning challenges.
Joe Farrell:
Yeah, I can take that one, Michelle. Just from KPMG partner perspective, what we wanted to do was really develop deep empathy with the employee of the VA, the employees of the VA, as well as the veteran community. And Amy and our team made it actually quite easy on us initially because she did all the due diligence. She gathered the insight and the data on the needs, wants, and desires of the VA employees and had surveys conducted. So we had a great base of foundational perspective into the data, which then enabled us to collaborate with Amy and our team, and then engaged the employees in the process, too. Because we wanted to create this personalized learning environment for each individual where we could assess them on their knowledge level, personalize the experience for them, and show them how they've gained the knowledge and learning they need to excel in their job. So one of the things I would say that KPMG brought to the table is just employee-centric empathy approach. And then, obviously, we brought the cross-pollination of professional learning services with innovative technologies. And then, obviously, Amy did all the hard work in the trenches gathering that insight, and then obviously the collaborative spirit that both of us took place.
Sarah Gallo:
Perfect. I'd like to piggyback on that. I'd love to hear from you, Amy, on how you did some of that hard work to set your partnership up for success, or your “homework,” so to speak. What did that look like?
Amy Parker:
We started with what we had, because we knew we wanted to go fast. And this may be something [that’s] not unique to government, but [it’s something that] employees are asked a lot, [which is], "What are you thinking?" And they're answering in a lot of different spaces. We do a, specific to VA, [an employee] survey every year. It's a big deal at the department. And so we started with what employees were saying there. We blitzed with different kind of media, everything from newsletter to websites and that sort of thing, where we knew our employees were going. We knew we wanted to start in an area to address a pressing priority for the department and develop a vision for how we were going to move ahead with the KPMG team and also with other leaders. So we had a council of all the learning leaders, as well as being responsible to the people in a subject matter area, for instance. And we knew that we could use it to build some momentum. So in that survey [of all employees], for instance, feedback on how people were feeling in their specific work areas, in their work units, and that sort of thing [was helpful]. We looked at that. And then we also considered access, again, back to the diversity of our workforce. Flexibility [was] another a big issue, being able to do assessments and gain their feedback as quickly as possible because that all-employee survey was annual. I heard another leader compare it to “taking your temperature,” but you've got to do a lot of other things if you realize you have a fever. You don't wait another year to take the Tylenol, so that's how we used [the survey results]. And again, we're going to add, this was 2019, 2020, skidding into COVID-time where big changes were happening across the department. We had large components of our workforce switching to working from home, but we also kept the doors open. So we had [employees] caring for veterans, a very important mission, and the VA [also] carries a “fourth” mission as we call it. So we have memorial, medical and benefits-related missions. [But] we also step up as part of a national response in times of crises or pandemics, that sort of thing.
Joe Farrell:
And if I add to that, too, Sarah, one of the things in the data that we saw was interesting. The audience didn't really know what the future state [of the department] would look like and feel like, but they helped us identify the attributes, or the characteristics, of the experience. The current [learning] experience was event based, once a year. What they wanted was continuous [learning] available while in the flow of work, so to speak. They wanted it personalized, right, because there was a lot of content out there [and people were thinking], “How do I sit through the content?” They wanted it somewhat integrated into the flow of work and into what they do, and they wanted engaging [training]. The actual content itself had to be very efficient. The instructional treatment had to be engaging. What we tried to do is take a consumer experience from the commercial world and bring that into the learning world and deliver the learning through that experience. And then finally, [learners] want impact. They wanted to make a difference, right? They wanted enough knowledge and learning so that they could apply it at their job to make their fellow employees successful and the veterans successful. And overall, I think, it just came out loud and clear how important this was [to employees] and how they wanted to be engaged and in the [learning] process. And we had an efficient process to keep them engaged, but I think that overall process of reaching out to the audience, developing that empathy, gathering those attributes, those characteristics, from them, and keeping them involved in the process, turned out to be a wonderful thing for this solution.
Sarah Gallo:
Perfect. Thank you, both. I think Michelle and I can both attest to the fact that we've heard again and again and again from guests on this very podcast that doing that prework really is so important before launching any sort of initiative. I want to touch on something else here. We know that creating a culture of learning and growth is something that the VA takes pride in. How did the KPMG and VA team really address the VA's mission for creating a leading learning culture?
Amy Parker:
We wanted to start in an area where we could show results quickly. And I mentioned earlier a pressing priority area, something that was on the radar of our top leadership, something the secretary would talk about, something the under secretaries would talk about. We had a very lively and committed deputy assistant secretary in the area of diversity and inclusion, who was a colleague of mine in the HR space where learning is also together with those priorities for the department. Everybody might recall once upon a time when you used to walk down the hallway and see a colleague and you would have a short conversation, and we would talk about some wacky ideas that we had. And he was very open to ideas and bringing in leaders in this area, such as KPMG. And we talked about, “What are some of the things we really want here?” Wacky ideas [that might seem foreign, like how] I used to watch things called “videotapes." I'll describe them. It looks like a large brick, but it's very light and plastic, and you would slide it into a machine called a Beta or VHS because I know most people might not remember that stuff. And when I was growing up, the first thing that would flash on the screen would be an FBI warning. It would say, "You can't copy this videotape. It doesn't belong to you." So we talked about how we were going to make, as far as making something pervasive, making it sticky and making it happen. Joe mentioned making it easy, timely, that sort of thing, so we talked about something like an FBI warning sort of thing. But on the good side. We weren't going to tell people, “Don't do this, that or the other thing.” And for me, having a value around fun and positivity, I had some conversations. The KPMG team never told me that's ridiculous. Some others might have thought that. Not on his team, but some others, maybe colleagues of mine, thought of fun around diversity and inclusion. Oh, yes, absolutely. Because that will be sticky for people. So having, again, having a partner who would be willing to say “yes” instead of, "You enthusiastic beginner, you don't know these things," that was very important for us.
Joe Farrell:
Yeah. And Sarah, if I may add to that, I mean, I think the spirit and the intent, the approach, that we had was to be inclusive, to be diverse, and to basically be open in our design thinking as we approach certain things. And I think for this solution, Amy and the leadership at the VA allowed quite a lot of due diligence up front to make sure we cover our bases as best we could in that space. And I think we did a bang up job if I may say so.
Amy Parker:
Yeah, I agree, Joe. And just one other thing I wanted to add we weren't going into a space where nothing had been done before. Right. We were going into a space where there was already a lot going on. And that was one of the other factors in how things were designed, just as Joe had mentioned earlier, to meet the employee where they were and make it more innovative, more interesting, that sort of thing.
Sarah Gallo:
Very cool. That blank slate sounds a little bit scary, but also really exciting. I think another thing the VA takes pride in, we know, is its commitment to inclusion. So with that in mind, Amy, can you talk specifically about your efforts to build a culture of inclusivity while your time at the VA?
Amy Parker:
That was really where we were partnering, where I was partnering with my colleague and having those exciting conversations in the hallway, wanting to think about it a little differently
In the mind of the beginner, there are many possibilities. In the mind of the expert, there are a few. This is probably where the fun came in where we were looking at what's the learning like in the space. And Joe mentioned, once a year that was how it was. It went on the list of things you have to do. And we talked about the diversity of our learners and their different approaches and their different backgrounds and their knowledge in this area. And some who, operating again in so many different markets, inclusion … maybe “not necessary” isn't the right way to put it, but it just isn't at the forefront of the conversation in some places. And so being aware of that first and then again, we really considered the individuals, and that was a lot of work on the KPMG team's part that made this special, that I think made it successful. [Actually], I don't think. I know that's what did it. That's what made it successful. So let's see… the idea this was really about getting ready to build that [culture of inclusion]. And there were places where it wasn't necessary, but then with the work that we were doing it, the places where it was were bubbling to the top. I'll put it that way.
Amy Parker:
Did I answer your question there?
Sarah Gallo:
Yeah. Yeah, that's great.
Amy Parker:
All right. Thanks.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
That's great. Kind of just circle back to something we mentioned earlier on around all this unprecedented change that we've seen in business and in our organizations, as the world of work continues to evolve, how can organizations ensure they're meeting the learning needs of their workforce, not just right now but into the future?
Joe Farrell:
Yeah. One of the things I would recommend is that they follow Amy's footsteps, so to speak, and in terms of courage to innovate and collaborate. There's a lot of obstacles that are facing business leaders, and those disruptions and obstacles will continue. Very often, a lot of leaders will avoid the obstacle and not lean into the obstacle. Amy did the opposite. She not only leaned in, but she made it enjoyable, and she made it meaningful for both KPMG and her employees and, obviously, put everything on the table in terms of the design thinking and creative thinking. And then, obviously, boiled that down into a solution where we leveraged innovative technology. I remember mentioning chat bots to Amy initially. And she goes, "Oh, I love bot technology," and usually CLOs, will go, "Oh my God, how are we going to launch a bot technology in this experience?" But that's the type of thing. It's just courage to innovate, lean into the obstacle, engage your employees, trust your employees. And don't be afraid to get an outside-in perspective, too. It can influence the way you think and the way you design your solutions. So I would say [the] courage to innovate [is critical]. And then, obviously, when you roll out your solutions, too, I really think learning organizations have to get into creating marketing around their learning experiences, right, and the value to the individual and the value to the organization. And then the governance around that has to oversee the rollout of that solution and tracking the effectiveness data of the solution. The solution we rolled out, similar solutions in the experience, ranged from 88% to 98% effectiveness rating. They reduce costs about 23%. And our largest solution, one of our largest solution, supports 500,000 learners. So again, I think as you go forward, I think the courage to lean into the obstacles, but take new role into marketing your learning services, putting your governance in play so that you can track the effectiveness of your solution, and then I would say the sustainability of the solution over time. You have to keep it fresh and current. And I know that's a challenge for organizations, but with the pace of disruption and change, we're going to have to keep updating, keep sustaining, our experience to support our employees.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Definitely, [it’s about] sustaining all those solutions that you constantly need to be improved and revised over time because change isn't slowing down.
Joe Farrell:
Yep. Yep.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Before we wrap up today, Joe, can you share a bit about KPMG's suite of learning services and solutions?
Joe Farrell:
Yeah, sure, absolutely. So KPMG actually just celebrated its 125th anniversary, so we've been around quite a lot. And I like to say we're still learning. Or better still, we're still finding new ways of learning, more effective ways of learning. But my organization has four work streams. One is the center of excellence where we work with innovators and leaders like Amy to get their point of view on the future of learning and incorporate that into our solutions. Another area is our strategy and transformation, and this is where we sit down and we co-design the future of learning with our clients. And then the two remaining areas is around our technology. We look into automation, bot technology, AI, and how we can bring technology to the table to enable a superior, highly effective learner experience. And then the end part is around learning as a service. When you're talking sustainability, KPMG can come in and manage certain learning services for you, like in the automation space, or the AI space where chief learning officers say, "I don't want to develop that competency in house. I'd rather work with a partner." We have a learning on the service component that can support our clients. So really we give the point of view on the future of learning from our center of excellence. We engage strategy to co-design build and sustain modern learning environments for our clients.
Sarah Gallo:
Wonderful. Well, with that, Joe and Amy, thank you both for speaking with us on the Business of Learning. How can our listeners get in touch with you after the episode if they would like to reach out?
Amy Parker:
I'm on LinkedIn.
Joe Farrell:
I'm on LinkedIn. You can also reach out to KPMG learning services. And you'll read more about Amy and I and how we're working together going forward. And also other innovative solutions that KPMG are involved in.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
For more real-world case studies and information on learning services, visit the show notes for this episode at trainingindustry.com/trainingindustrypodcast.
Sarah Gallo:
And if you enjoyed this episode, let us know. Leave a review wherever you listen to your podcast. We love hearing from you.
Sarah Gallo:
Until next time.
